opinions of RIAT 2009

Location : east midlands Spotter Watch Member : Yes

I really wish folk would get away from the "Them & Us" "Joe Public" v "Johnny Spotter" scenario. Persistant talk on this 'difference' has been aired on a goodly number of forums, over the years - to the extent that those involved with running Airshows are likely to believe such a state exists. It doesn't actually matter. "Joe Public" aren't always as 'thick' as many (most?) posters here seem to portray them. An airshow static well laid out and a decent display programme aimed at the Enthusist fraternity, will inevitably enhance "Joe Public"'s airshow experience.

The predeliction by many that chunky barriers 6 inches from an aircraft's nose is for the public's benefit is seriously flawed. The only folk who may benefit from this arrangement are the 1% of Enthusiasts perhaps more accurately described as "rivet counters" - you know, those irritating folk who take 3-4 minutes to line up their 'detail shot' & then spend a further 5-6 minutes (stood in everyone else's way!) examining their efforts, before drifting slowly off! Just listen to "Joe"'s comments, never mind the more 'airframe-aware'! And spare a thought for the kiddies! The world looks a whole lot different when you're only three foot tall! My grandson has complained long and hard about only being able to see a nosewheel, or a drop tank, thanks to such 'barrier fests' - and he's not an aircraft enthusiast, and not likely to be, unless the
organisers become more 'family friendly'. They may think they are (& to be fair, things are starting to improve), but not to the extent they could.

Compared to (say) Zeltweg, the proportion of "Enthusiasts" among the crowd at Fairford is far, far higher - RIAT claims (or used to?) to cater principally for this element, yet there was little to choose between the two locations in terms of 'entertainment' value. Main difference? Eu7 per vehicle to park, and no entry fee!

I'll admit, I'm not sure I qualify as an "Aircraft Enthusiast" per se. I'll even 'own up' to 'requiring' some 30 'new' aircraft for 'lines-in-the-book' (incl. some Tutors!) and a fair proportion of my airshow attendances over the past 20 years ago have been 'family outings', so I probably see the overall 'experience' differently. We are all going to see, enjoy even, a particular event in a different light. Personally, seeing (& photographing) my last NATO E-3 & my last Omani BAC 111 in an uncluttered manner, counted for far more than a 'repeat' Greek F-4 (which my camera ignored!). Yeah, I'd have dearly loved a row of half a dozen F-4s (mmnn, and half a dozen different RAF squadron Tornados, too!), but those who don't want that to happen - for political reasons - currently have the sway, sad to say!

But we, as responsible forum members, must use this communication medium to attempt to 'kill off' the idea that there is an insurmountable void 'twixt "Joe Public" & "Johnny Spotter", before we become regarded as 'grumbling for the sake of it'!

Location : Sheffield Spotter Watch Member : no

Fair comment - I take your point, but my view is that it's all too easy to dismiss complaints as "moaning for the sake of it". I would agree that simply complaining about RIAT is a pointless excercise at it acheives nothing. But my hope is that - sooner or later - there may be enough disillusionment to create change. In all honesty I think it isn't going to happen, but it's always worth a try, as the results might benefit us all. As for the Joe Public/Enthusiast debate, I agree that it can often be over-emphasised but I'm sure you'd agree that there is a very big difference in the interests of a typical camera-carrying "plane nut" and the typical family that simply wants a nice day out looking at some planes zooming around... and not really caring what sort of planes they happen to be. I guess the irony is that both audiences can obviously be entertained by the same aircraft, but RIAT have slowly drifted into a situation where aerobatic teams, civilian acts, even wing walkers have become almost essential parts of the programme, taking the show further and further away from its roots.

The sad aspect of this matter is that, as enthusiasts, we represent a very large group of people. Okay, you can argue how much the enthusiast/Joe Public figures overlap, but even in isolation, the enthusiast fraterny is a large-enough proportion of the air show audience to have a serious effect on the commercial success of a show. The problem is that (as you can easily see), we rarely agree on much! Many people are of course genuinely happy with RIAT as it is. But an even larger number of people are less-than happy with it, but continue to support it and make encouraging remarks about it. I guess that's human nature - some people always see the proverbial glass as being half full. But if these same people could openly agree that RIAT isn't as good as it could be, we'd be a little further towards a shared view that things could be much improved.

As I've said before, the real key to influencing RIAT is with our money. If we don't go, they will inevitably take notice. But human nature being what it is, most enthusiasts will continue to go, in order to see what they can, even if it isn't much. Likewise, the more significant forums such as this one, UKAR and so on, have the opportunity to establish a collective viewpoint and publish it - and persuade the aviation press to do likewise. As a group we're sufficiently important to make people take notice.

But as long as so many of us are happy to shrug our shoulders and say "better luck next year" and "well done" for the good aspects of the show - presumably for fear of being branded a "moaner" - the situation will inevitably get worse. It's not about moaning at all really - it's about identifying that the show has undeniably lost its way and that it could be greatly improved, if only RIAT were convinced that any improvements were necessary. Guess the fundamental question is whether enough of us really do think that the show could be better, and whether enough of us are prepared to say so in a cohesive and intelligent manner?

Location : nottingham Spotter Watch Member : no

seeing (& photographing) my last NATO E-3 & my last Omani BAC 111 in an uncluttered manner, counted for far more than a 'repeat' Greek F-4

You were not alone,this was my last Nato E-3 and have chased it for decades !! Nato,french,RAF,Saudi all done just a few Yanks left so I guess it is a good example of the sublime being someone elses star.....On the bigger picture...1,I am glad we have critics like Sheff,it can only do good to have both sides of opinion represented even if you dont sometimes agree. 2, Thank goodness fighter control is a grown up forum where debate and opinion are allowed and enjoyed,there is an E-group that many of you know called "mil" something,there debate quickly turned into foul mouthed outbursts by children....I like the pre show build,the arrivals reports,the show and the after debate on fighter control,its been my first RIAT while on F/C and thanks to all for extending the enjoyment....Gary

Moderator Location : UK Spotter Watch Member : No

gary lees wrote:: Thank goodness fighter control is a grown up forum where debate and opinion are allowed and enjoyed,there is an E-group that many of you know called "mil" something,there debate quickly turned into foul mouthed outbursts by children....I like the pre show build,the arrivals reports,the show and the after debate on fighter control,its been my first RIAT while on F/C and thanks to all for extending the enjoyment....Gary

Thanks for the kind words Gary.

Yes, the foul mouthed abuse coming out of Mil Spotters is a real shame. Another example of the minority spoiling it for the majority...............

Mil Spotters will recover, it's a fantastic e-mail provider.

Subject: IAT 2009-07-22, 12:54

We all have aright to say when something isnt right, and some things at the IAT are not right, which ever way you look at it.

There is a differance between joe public and johnny spotter, joe public would not care what the serial number of an E-3 or BAC 1-11 was they propbably dont even know what is called until they read the sign by it.

The IAT have a winning formula and that is offer the a selection of items and events that get as many people through the gate as possible, and offer enough to keep the aircraftr spotters coming back, so they have a win win situation, they dont have to listen to the aircraft nutters because there isnt enough of them to count and as long as they can get one or two rare items they will come.

The other problem is this is the largest airshow of its type in the world and we would there fore be bonkers to miss it.

viper 01

Subject: Re: opinions of RIAT 2009 2009-07-22, 13:22

viper 01 wrote:: until they read the sign by it.
viper 01

What sign ?

You have to spend £3.50 on an Aircraft Checklist to find out,to me that is disgusting.

Subject: Re: opinions of RIAT 2009 2009-07-22, 13:37

Been going to the Tattoo for 20 year's.......the numbers of Static and Flying aircraft are a sign of the times I'm afraid........it was always going to be like that!

Thankfully, I managed to go on the Saturday, when the sun did appear now and again...........enjoyed the flying ( The Navy flypast was impressive - pity the Sea-Vixen didn't bother coming back!)

BUT.......that walk from the early-bird parking field, to the ticket booths.....was a pain!!!!....not to mention that at previous Tattoo's you always had some nice "live" aircraft to look at!!!

Location : east midlands Spotter Watch Member : Yes

viper 01 wrote:: There is a differance between joe public and johnny spotter, joe public would not care what the serial number of an E-3 or BAC 1-11 was they propbably dont even know what is called until they read the sign by it. viper 01

But who can tell which is which? "Joe P" will probably want to take a phot of the E3 ("What's that wierd round thing on the top for?") and then wander down the other end (Oh! I've just got to take a phot of this plane with all the 'funny' writing on it!"). That's why I'm trying to emphasise the point that, to the uninitiated (professional organiser!), there appears to be no difference! I might just as well have said I'd taken a phot of the F-4 or Tiger-striped Sea King (I didn't take either, because I've seen/taken them before - had it been a 'required' machine for me, that'd be different!), but there again, "Joe P" is more likely to add these to his 'snapshots' of the day.

As with Waddington (& listening to the "Joe Public" chat going on around us!), the numbers at Fairford were heavily re-inforced, this year, by the "Vulcan Factor". The dramatic drop in numbers on the Waddington Sunday seemed to prove that, once it became generally known it wasn't going to fly.

By and large, I'm in general agreement with most of Shef's observations. We may be coming at things from a different angle, but the underlying theme is still very much one of, "Could do (a lot) better!" as far as UK airshows are concerned. Certainly, the feedback (from the "Joe Public" viewpoint) that other members of my family have had from their friends/colleagues who went, is that they were at best "very disappointed" to "I'll not bother to go again!" with Waddington, while my wife, having seen photos of the actual display (note: NOT static!), actually wants to go to Fairford again, next year, having 'banned' it for two or three years previously!

Location : nottingham Spotter Watch Member : no

GOOSE wrote:

gary lees wrote:: Thank goodness fighter control is a grown up forum where debate and opinion are allowed and enjoyed,there is an E-group that many of you know called "mil" something,there debate quickly turned into foul mouthed outbursts by children....I like the pre show build,the arrivals reports,the show and the after debate on fighter control,its been my first RIAT while on F/C and thanks to all for extending the enjoyment....Gary

Thanks for the kind words Gary.

Yes, the foul mouthed abuse coming out of Mil Spotters is a real shame. Another example of the minority spoiling it for the majority...............

Mil Spotters will recover, it's a fantastic e-mail provider.

Thanks Goose,
Having been on mil-spotters for over 10yrs you are definately right,it will soon be back to normal and has given me so many gem`s over the last 10yrs+ I could only shout it`s praise`s but as in every walk of life there are alway`s a few Sad

I must back up that last comment on the walk from early bird parking it was a real pain....and the real stupid thing was you could walk all that way get security checked and it was only then someone asked if you had a ticket !!! very strange way/order of doing things

Subject: Re: opinions of RIAT 2009 2009-07-22, 13:52

That was really strange,why go through security BEFORE they ask for your ticket ?

Location : Mid Cheshire Spotter Watch Member : Yes

It acts as a deterrent. Some perp sees he's going to get searched will more than likely pull back pretending to have left his ticket in his car, vis a vis no RAF (Or private security personell) have the worry of wrestling him to the ground and arresting him ,.,,,,,,,,, I mean think of all that paper work!!!!..........LOL

Location : Glasgow Spotter Watch Member : no

All very interesting comments.

I enjoyed it. Didn’t think I would before hand but it turned out ok.

The static had (a lot) fewer aircraft than I would like and was lacking in variety but in its favour I though pretty well laid out for the most part. I agree with the comments that the back ground clutter does not make for perfect pictures and could we have the star loop with the trees in the back ground back for next year please.

I am one of the lucky ones who get the full 6 days at RIAT so some aircraft being on the north side did not bother me too much.

The flying was ok. Some good stuff and some quiet periods which left me time for a stroll round the place. If it was wall to wall I would enjoy it but then feel bad for missing stuff when I went to look round the static.

Parking was ok but my bench mark is Leuchars.

Prices for food, check lists, programmes etc. Sure I would like them all for nothing but at the end of the day the objective is to raise money for the RAF Charities. In 2007 the show cost over £4.5m to stage and only brought in £5m in revenue leaving £300,000 for the charities and £150,000 or so as an operating contingency against things like cancellation (think somebody had a premonition?). This is not a massive profit margin so if those are the prices it takes to raise money for such a good cause then I will keep paying them after all the objectives for the organisers are to firstly raise money for the charities and then secondly to do it by putting on a good show. I can live with that.

Roll on next year.

Big Grin

Location : Cambridge, UK Spotter Watch Member : No

Some very interesting view and comments on here.......good that we can express them all without getting shot down in flames as with some other forums!

For me, despite my slightly senior years, this was only my fourth RIAT, so I do not know the 'good old days' when there wasn't enough time in the day to see everything, so do not have memories of the huge line up of aircraft and the different visiting airforces.

So with that in mind, I thought that the show was pretty good overall. We can all complain about the high costs for the incidentals etc but lets face it, we don't have to buy them and as enthusiasts, probably don't really need them - yes it was nice to know what was going to arrive on Thursday but not essential.

I considered the whole weekend to be well run, access being much easier than in years past - other than Saturday night queue getting out of the car park - parking on the Thursday, Friday and Monday was easy, although FRIAT could have had a slightly more frequent bus service than half hourly! I don't usually bother with statics as I cannot be bothered to fight with everybody to get that last shot, but this year had a quick wander around on Saturday and found it quite easy to get the shot I was after with little clutter in the way - yes, the backgrounds were a pain but this was an airshow not an excercise!

My one small gripe about this year is really about missed opportunities in the display.
Great to see the Typhoon and Spit together - but why after 7.00 on Friday night - I am sure that it could have been done on Sat or Sun.
Having the Vulcan arrive on Friday was great - why could it not have been scheduled to arrive earlier when the Reds were up and have them 'escort' it in - more dramatic and easy to arrange I am sure.
On Sunday, good to see the B-52 flyover as The Vulcan was waiting to depart - why not a flypast from them both together?
Too many of the aircraft were doing either flat passes or even worse race track patterns which gave too many bottom side shots to the crowd - two years ago the B-1 gave a superb high speed topside pass on the Sunday - stunning shots had by all. A slowish, low topside pass by the big jets, Nimrod, Vulcan, B-52, KC-10 would have been so much more dramatic. Small things that should have been easy to arrange if a little more thought had been put into combining some of the acts.
Those of us that have enjoyed shows in the USA, aside from the free entry, will have experienced the much more dramatic flypasts - all of the US display teams build a 'dedication pass' into their routine - essentially, a high speed topside pass along the display line, generating plenty of vapour - perfect photo op! From Aviation Nation last year, I have a series of superb shots of F-22, F-18, F-15 and many others. In this country we don't seem to pick up on the 'theatrical' side of displays - great to see the airframes being thrown around the sky but quite often very little imagination is put into the presentation side - after all who are they performing to.

Gripe over - really enjoyed the whole weekend - good to see many old friends and make new ones as well and really looking forward to next year when hopefully there will not be quite so mant cancellations. In the mean time, I am also looking forward to Tiger Meet 2009 @ Kleine Brogel, where I am told they know how to put on a show!

Location : Lincoln

badlands99 wrote:: My one small gripe about this year is really about missed opportunities in the display.
Great to see the Typhoon and Spit together - but why after 7.00 on Friday night - I am sure that it could have been done on Sat or Sun.

This flyby was for the Gala Dinner, it was not a rehearsal. It was the Rolls Royce Spitfire from Filton, although it flew from Kemble on this occasion.
You'd have to ask Rolls Royce why they choose not to display it on public days.
Regards,
Andy Marden

Location : Sheffield Spotter Watch Member : no

Badlands, I agree with your points in many respects. I guess the main reason why top-side passes are fairly rare is because they require the pilot to position the aircraft in a lazy turn towards the crowd and this inevitably means that the start and end of the pass crosses the display line limit (unless the pass is very far away from the crowd or flown as a straight knife-edge pass which is kinda difficult for a heavy multi-engined type!). Naturally it can be achieved if done carefully but I suspect this is why it doesn't become a more regular part of displays at places like RIAT. Shame though, I agree!

As for why the Vulcan and B-52 didn't team-up, it's doubtless because the formation would have to be practiced and demonstrated for the display committee, and would also require permission from the appropriate USAF people, so it's probably just a bit too complicated to set-up. Besides, even if it was arranged, it would doubtless be a very loose formation!

You mention Typhoon/Spitfire and I'm surprised that the RAF (particularly for RIAT) didn't pair the aircraft up for a couple of passes. Rehearsing shouldn't be a problem considering the pilots/aircraft are all at the same base, and if the BBMF display had been arranged to finish as the Typhoon display started, it ought to have been fairly simple to achieve. I guess it would have been rather more complex to fly with the Rolls Royce Spit, but not with a BBMF machine. Definitely a lost opportunity.

Same applies to the Vulcan/Red Arrows. If the display slots had been suitably fixed, they could surely have flown together without any unnecessary effort. On the same theme, I'm sure there could have been other possibilities if the display programme had been used more creatively. For example, if the Reds were performing any other displays away from Fairford this year (and I don't know if they did or not, so I'm only talking in theory here), I don't see why their arrival/departure couldn't have been linked with the beginning/end of the Frecce's display for example - two full formation teams flying past together would certainly be something you don't see very often.

I suppose in some respects it might have been interesting to stick the three Hornet displays together. It would have eased the accusation that three Hornets was perhaps a bit too much (if they were flown back-to-back I imagine people would have regarded it as one combined display item), it would have avoided the complaint that you had to spend a long time at the crowd line to catch all the "star items" and it would have provided a unique opportunity to fly a Finnish, Swiss and Spanish Hornet together for a final formation flypast - that would certainly have been fascinating!

Location : Cambridge, UK Spotter Watch Member : No

Andy - my comments regarding the Spit/Typhoon combination was more a general observation and as Sheff pointed out, it would not be hard to practice this at Coningsby with the BBMF.

Sheff - I understand your reasoning regarding the topside passes, especially with the very long crowd line at Fairford but it could be done with a little thought. The Rafale managed to fit a fair bit of 'topside' during the initial launch into it's routine and I would reckon that most photographers got a good shot of it - so with a little thought it can be done but something that too many of the acts didn't try.

I just thought that whilst the displays were good and I enjoyed the whole weekend, there were just a few too many moments when you thought 'why didn't they do that' or 'wouldn't it have been good if these two could have flown together' and even the few suggestions that we have made would have lifted a fairly good show into something a bit different and a bit more special.

Just an observation from an otherwise enjoyable weekend

Location : west lothian (scotland)

in a whole the RIAT 3 day event i took in was pretty good even though the flying display of the fast jets well lets face it to many simular fast jets were flying but that didnt make it a bad show

arrived at cirncester 1pm thursday checked into hotel went round to the base wasnt goiong to pay the official park and view price for a couple of hours so found a nice camp and view £2.50 per persons

and it was a great advantage point for displays got a good view of the F18 and the linx display team

on to friday big prob was not much went on till about 11 after the B52 took off after that got a busier but by 4:30 the weather took its toll on me and my dad still a good day

sat was in green carpark by 06:30 on base and seated at the flight line at 07:50
enjoyed the show and had decided before hand after the Vulcan displayed would catch the static first time for me in 5 years that we done that was normally after the show had ended

only grip of the show i had 2 germans beside me with what could only be descirbed as 2 rocket launchers for cameras 900mm wide lens to big to long for being at the display line
that was the biggest shame for me if you want to use a lens that size go back 3 or 4 rows so others can take pictures with out a big bloody lens getting in the road

roll on next year

Location : nottingham Spotter Watch Member : no

Here`s a photo gripe.... I was just about to take a pic of the French EC725 and a head/body appear straight infront of me,I moan and the diddering old git turns around and say`s "you did it to me earlier!" he had followed me around waiting for his chance ! I told him we would never be best friend`s and he left quickly.....Old man in a flat cap with glasses I will be looking for you next year !! Laugh

Subject: Re: opinions of RIAT 2009 2009-07-23, 14:20

The Hawk T2 had a cockpit cover on it by 17.30 on Saturday,but the T1 didn't.Anyone know why ?
When did the Catalina's cover come off,it was still there at 10.00 on Saturday ?????

Subject: Re: opinions of RIAT 2009 2009-07-23, 14:45

Funny you mention the Germans.

we were sat quietly minding our own business in the Jubilee garden as the BBMF started their displays.

anyway just in front of us there was sat this German couple who proceeded to insult the memorial flight along the lines of "more like a memorial to mass murder"

Now my other-halfs sister is married to a German and lives near Stuttgart and we often visit and speak the lingo well enough to understand what they were saying.

So when i gave them a round housing in german they went very red and moved away rather sheepishly.

Geoff

Location : caernarfon north wales Spotter Watch Member : no

went on the sunday.plenty of rain.no sign of an f15 and no harrier display.couldnt find the hunter and the a10s.considering the conditions the flying was good.pity the bbmf did not fly,but got a photo of the lancaster and the nose of the spitfire in the hangar.no parachute display team either,nor a rescue display from srg170.no sign of the 19sqdn valley hawks which were billed to display.i went there in 2007 which was much better than this year.no sign of the c17 flying which i was looking forward to see.why was there no tornado flying?.we have plenty.considering its the largest airshow,i think,i think i expected too much.enjoyed the day though,glad my nikon was weatherproof.will be back again next year.
gareth
near raf valley
north wales

Subject: RIAT 09 - My Two Penny Worth! 2009-07-29, 05:01

I just would like to put my two penny worth in also!!.....seeing that this years RIAT has raised so many emotions!

The last RIAT I attended was 2006, which for me was a better show than the Saturday of this years event.
I was dissapointed with some of the display aircraft or the lack of the headline USAF aircraft such as the F22 Raptor, F117 Stealth, B2 Spirit, C17, A10, B1 Lancer, C5 Galaxy.....It was also a shame that the F4 was only static!

I didn't buy a programme this year as i felt it was far too expensive.

I think my opinion about RIAT is possibly effected by my childhood memories of Mildenhall's fantastic Air Fete!....were my expectations too high? RIAT cannot match the atmosphere that the very welcoming USAF personnel at Mildenhall put on for the british public, each USAF department such as 'Supply' & 'Maintenance' would set out a BBQ stall & sell their burgers & hot dogs with an amazing barbeque sauce and American beer, the smells mixed with the aviation fuel from the fast jets flying overhead is a memory that will stay with me forever!

The highlights of this years show for me were:

XH558 (although it was a very conservative display)
Frecce Tricolori
Red Arrows (I thought the display was a little too long though)
Rolls Royce Spitfire
RAF Eurofighter
Chinook Display
RNZAF 757
Nimrod (again, a very conservative display though)
C17 Static Display

I think i've said enough now as alot has already been said about RIAT but I beleive our expectations of these events in these current times are very personal. The organisers obviously work very hard to put these shows on but I think that they should spend more time into the flying content of the show.

After all that is said and done, I'll be back again next year!!

Nuff said!

Location : berkshire Spotter Watch Member : no

Hi all i think that RIAT 2009 taking into account the current climate was excellant allthough i still think that crucial changes to the format should happen.To attract rare participants i think a Kliene Brogol setup should be adopted as they would be there for an exercise rather than just a show.Well done RIAT team for your efforts but please for the future sucess of the show change must happen.

Subject: RIAT 2009-08-18, 13:35

Didnt actually go to the show, but went to departures on the Monday, everything had gone by mid afternoon so it was a busy few hours and i thoroughly enjoyed it, delighted to see the 2 A10s as i didnt think they were coming to RIAT. Was chuffed to see the Greek F4 Phantom, brill colour scheme, have missed it a few times so happy i got to see it this year.