opinions of RIAT 2009

Location : nottingham Spotter Watch Member : no

how fit the Guinot girls were as they had to raise there legs into the airstream Cheers

Are you sure you were at Fairford and not some adults only event? Embarassed

Subject: Re: opinions of RIAT 2009 2009-07-21, 08:17

I think this year could see a record of complaints in general for most, if not all UK airshows.
The weather hasn't helped one bit and no one can blame that for a poor show. Participants (decent ones) is certainly the area where shows need to think about now as it seems, going by peoples replies in all the forums and threads on the airshows, a lot are just getting bored of the same old thing.
Look how many people just turned up at some airshows *just* to see the Vulcan flying. Many, many thousands.

Going back to the IAT years (not RIAT) there was certainly a lot more different 'exotic' types which turned up however those which tickle peoples bubbles (such as the Soviet Bloc stuff) are no longer available either because they are too old, in a museum, scrapped or just unable to get here due to fuel.

However those who say the English Channel acts as a buffer zone are correct in a way. It's just like the decent thunderstorms, they edge to go over the channel from France only to peter out...
If you take a look what turns up at airshows literally *just* across the channel then you can see what people are on about.
Why they don't want to make that leap across the short little bit of water i really don't know.

Look what turns up for Paris Air show and what doesn't at Farnborough.... look what turns up at other major airshows in Europe but doesn't show at RIAT or any other.

Not being on the RIAT team i really don't know the reason why they can't grab some acts which are 'special' yet smaller shows across the water can.
RIAT had over 30 cancellations this year, some being nice participants. What was the reason?

Location : Sunny Wolverhampton Spotter Watch Member : no

gary lees wrote:: how fit the Guinot girls were as they had to raise there legs into the airstream

Are you sure you were at Fairford and not some adults only event?

Guinot Girls! Opps

Subject: Re: opinions of RIAT 2009 2009-07-21, 08:32

old_git wrote:

Quote :: Used to make me laugh when they had the Radio roadshows at RIAT. Do they still do this?

No but we were treated to the FABBA girls live on stage Opps

and to top that we had Sarah Greene of Blue Peter and crashed helicopter fame explaining to us how fit the Guinot girls were as they had to raise there legs into the airstream Cheers

Geoff

You've got the wrong Sarah Greene. Razz

The Sarah Green commentating for Guinot is the team's PR officer, not the TV "personality".

Subject: Re: opinions of RIAT 2009 2009-07-21, 08:47

well that shows just how bad the show was then.

they couldn't even get the real Sarah Greene. Angel

Geoff

Location : Kent Spotter Watch Member : no

Done the whole week from wed through mon so here goes,

wed through fri and mon
upsides:
New layout of blue cones on way to field in P&V east a massive plus for me, i get there at 5:30 and que up in a chair with a book for 2 hours - if people want to get to the front for a better view then they should do the same - not just run past people.
A few more stalls than normal, something to look at and buy during breaks in arrivals.
Very well organised air cadets- the ' next generation ' always ducked down when something was happening and did regular litter runs even in the rain, all concerned were a credit to the service. Thumbs Up

The volunteers were amazing, very helpful, polite and with a sense of humour - nice wigs girls!!!
The yanks BBQ, can of mountain dew and a £1 'wet' hot dog, spot on!

downsides:
Ok the mess on wednesday was a nightmare but at least it was sorted and they had the decency to say sorry after.
On friday some t**t was on a ladder in the corner next to taxiway and runway end, they have a ladder enclosure for a reason, couldn't get in there?? guess what? get there earlier!! there are no excuses!! and standing on his camera box when told to get off the ladder was just a shear blast of pure arrogance and disrepect to others of our kind, if your on here you are a disgrace!!!
£3 for an arrivals sheet was disgusting, £3 for 2 A4 pieces of paper, absurd!

saturday - watching display
upsides:
Personally i thought the display was ok, i dont care for too many display teams so only having the reds, frecce, brietling and jordy falcons was spot on.
Continuous flying - no breaks in between display items.
Lots of noise! i love jet noise so having 3 hornets 2 gripens 1 typhoon and of course 558 was great!
Great debut display from the rafale picking up 2 awards in the process - one of the highlights for me this year.
All flying displays were very good, looked like they were all competing against each other which made for great displays.
Downsides:
Apart from the BUFF there was no flying US examples - considering our relationship with our friends from across the pond and also that it was held on a US base i think that is poor.
Although i have said i enjoyed having 3 flying hornets i think something else would have been better for example having a spainish typhoon instead of the hornet - or even better something from another country! why oh why cant we have flying german exhibits again! just would have liked a bit more balance, an f-15 maybe?
Speakers on flight line were too loud and ruined certain displays, one of the hornets you heard through the speakers before you heard it for real.
Guys on carts feeding the cadets had hardly any consideration for people taking pics or even watching, at one time they drove up stood talking to the 2 cadets sitting under speaker for over 5 min with no effort to sit down or anything, considering the helpfulness of the cadets themselves i found this quite bemusing Crying

No B1

Sunday - wandering around

Upsides:
Cheap umbrellas Laughing

Alot of thought went to arranging the static however it wasn't that hard with the low turn out.
Good range of food
Brains the Bae AI - fantastic!! i found this amazing!
Russ swift in his evo, seen him do it all in a mini but seeing it in the evo was fantastic.
plenty of toilets, although they should have been spread out more, they were only in 2 locations were'nt they? and as someone has posted none up the 27 end.
Variety of stalls - quite good as always though i dont like having the car dealers there ( although my daughter loved going through the land rover exhibit)
Friendly aircrew, Greek guys very friendly having pics taken etc, jordanians as ever realy cheerfull, AV f-16 and F-15 crews all friendly too.
Lots to see and do such as the imagineering tent and Bae/Lockheed tent ( the free merlin sim was quality!)
Loads of freebies! daughter has bags of pens notebooks stickers etc!!!
downsides:
No cover, during the downpours there was hardly any where to take cover, could'nt some marquees be erected along certain routes just so people had cover? ok the tents with activities in such as the Bae and Lockheed one and tri@riat one were ok to take cover in but once you had been in them you felt silly going back in,
im sure they could erect some more and arrange it with other exhibits so you have a mall effect, if the weather was planned to be hot all weekend then obviously it wouldn't be needed but the poor weather was predicted for ages, ok you could dive in some of the shops but im sure the shop owners didnt like having 50 people in a stall that can only hold 20! bet they lost stock via the ' sticky fingers ' method.
Poor static quantity - note i have said quantity not quality!! the aircraft there were cracking, most notably the greek RF-4E, dutch F-16, French mirage's and Dyess c-130 to name a few, i just feel that there wasnt enough there, i wont write the list of non participating countries as someone already has so no point doing it again!
£8 for the programme, over 100 pages of which probably over 60 are just adverts that are of no use to the general public. was going to get a checklist too but £3.50?? get outta here!
Price of food was horrid but this was expected anyway so was prepared £3 for 2 bits of bacon in a bun? Mad

All in all i would give this one 7/10, after last year it was a good effort, and with no major gripes i firmly look forward to next year and have already paid my deposit for the campsite!

Location : Sheffield Spotter Watch Member : no

Some valid points here I think but I don't see anything which couldn't be addressed if the will was there (which it isn't I'm afraid).

It's true that marshalling a lot of aircraft is difficult, but then this goes back to the question of whether the show is too big - and artificially so. If you take-out all of the performers that you can see at lots of other venues, there's a much smaller core of interesting aircraft. Problem is, RIAT like to go for quantity in order to maintain this concept of being the "biggest and best" year after year. I just don't get it. I guess they might think that a smaller show wouldn't warrant £30-40 admission fee but that's not necessarly true. I would certainly be more prepared to pay that much and make the long drive if the aircraft on show were both interesting and displayed in a useful way, and I suspect many other people would be too. But I don't think RIAT see things like that. They obviously think that in order to keep the general public coming, they have to make it a long flying display.

It goes back to the question as to who the show is amed at. Okay, Waddington are pretty clear that the show is for the general public and we enthusiasts are only a secondary consideration. But RIAT still emphasise that the show is supposedly for real enthusiasts, following the aims and traditions of the event which has always been to present a military air tattoo. If that really is the case, then there's a great deal which can be done to make the event more appealing. If RIAT want to concentrate on making money and getting the general public's attention then that's fine - but they could stop pretending that they're doing much to entertain the rest of us.

Like I said before, when you have a dwindling number of available aircraft, the only option is to make better use of what you've got. It's pointless to accuse me (or anybody else) of "moaning" that there's too many flying or too many static. We have what we have, and surely there's a good case for thinking about how the aircraft on show can be presented more intelligently? It's not as if I ever offer my complaints without any suggestion as to how they could be addressed. Ultimately, I don't see any reason why the interests of both the general public and enthusiasts cannot be met within the same show, if enough (radical) thinking was invested in it.

As for why so many aircraft appear to come-up against a "glass wall" across the Channel, I guess there are many reasons for that which are out of RIAT's control. But in this respect I think the key to success goes back to my earlier comments about making the event more than just a simple show. If RIAT created and hosted a useful "meet" or exercise, they have the space to enable it to be conducted in front of the public. This would encourage more overseas visitors (they would be more inclined to come if they were doing something useful, rather than just parking-up their aircraft for a weekend), and invitations from a squadron level would probably be more successful. The idea isn't as radical as it sounds - as I said before, it looks like the Tiger Meet might well be drifting this way. There's lots which could be done, if there was any enthusiasm for getting away from the same old show format which has clearly reached its sell-by date. But as I keep saying, RIAT clearly don't see any need to change anything while they're enjoying commercial success. It comes back to us as enthusiasts to use our collective power by either staying away or using the farmer's fields to watch the show, instead of continually saying that the show isn't as good as it was, but it's better than nothing, and turning-up again the year after, paying admission, paying for enthusiast packages and paying for P&V for four days. The only way RIAT will ever start to grasp that an awful lot of us are just bored by it all, is when we stop giving them money. It's a harsh lesson in reality but we really are doing them (and us) no favours my simply resigning ourselves to a gradually declining show, and still turning-up year after year.

Subject: IAT 2009-07-21, 10:35

I still think the IAT is value for money at £37 for a day out, if you compare this to say a football match or the British Grand Prix then it suddenly looks quite good, however this is not to say I think the IAT is run well because this is not the case, they shoot themselves in the foot with just about everything else they do.

1] I dont wish to pay £8 for a program for the simple reason I either know it or could write it like most people on here, I would pay a couple of quid to know the flying program.

2] I think the food and drink is vastly over priced and a rip off, Thursday and friday i dont take any food as I buy the food from the USAF £3 for a beef burger,hot dog, tin of pop and a packet of crisps is very good value.

3] The IAT tries to be all things to all men and it cant be, at the end of the day it is an airshow, not a stunt show or the like, and this takes a large area that could be used for other things.

4] As I said in post before, the people who are on the front line are jobs worths who hinder you more than they help as they seem to be given rules and this are law and nothing you can say to them chanes there mind.

5] The IAT do seem to have forgoten that this is an airshow and have cut the numbers of aircraft coming back and back to save money, and yes I know that airforces dont have the aircraft they used and we have to remember that we are fighting a war, but a freind of mine went to airshow in France the other week and there were loads of specially painted F-1's and 2000's why werent these requested, or polish F-16 or a Russian aircraft after all it was 60 years of NATO and with out the russians then NATO wouldnt have happened.

There are loads of rare aircraft that people would love to see, I am lucky I have been a spotter / nutter for all of my life, and can remember the good old days {and yes the world was in colour back in the 1970's 1980's etc} and I have seen things that others will never see, some long since gone but some still going, I can still remember the lines of KC-135's etc at Greenham and fairford, and the many fast jets and alot of these are still in service German F-4's etc why cant we have these sort of aircraft, I know this seems I am saying the old days were better, and in some cases there werent but in some ways they were the IAT team understood that it was airshow and gave you aircraft from all over the world, these are the days i wish for not the money making scheme we have now.

viper 01

Moderator Location : In a layby

viper 01 wrote:: 5] The IAT do seem to have forgoten that this is an airshow and have cut the numbers of aircraft coming back and back to save money, and yes I know that airforces dont have the aircraft they used and we have to remember that we are fighting a war, but a freind of mine went to airshow in France the other week and there were loads of specially painted F-1's and 2000's why werent these requested, or polish F-16 or a Russian aircraft after all it was 60 years of NATO and with out the russians then NATO wouldnt have happened.

Interestingly I was told the reason the Russian's didnt appear was political, nothing to do with fuel costs etc. They supposedly said they would like to attend but were told they cant. How true that is, I guess we will never know Roll Eyes

Location : Sheffield Spotter Watch Member : no

Well, indeed, it's impossible to know the true picture. On the rare occasions when RIAT talk about the show, they generally say little of any value and issue the same stock responses. You inevitably hear lots of reasons why the Russians (and others like them) don't attend but the clearest comments came from the sainted Mr.Prince who said it was simply down to cost. Things may have changed though - who knows? I'm sure that in an ideal world RIAT would still have the Russians at the show but I'm just not entirely convinced that RIAT put nearly as much effort/resources into getting them as they'd have us believe, especially when the show seems to be doing very well, commercially-speaking. Mind you, that thought probably applies to lots of other aircraft too!

Subject: Re: opinions of RIAT 2009 2009-07-21, 12:02

Just a thought,but I couldn't help notice the absence of arrivals on the Saturday morning between 08.00-10.00,during every IAT/RIAT(18,I think) that I've been to those 2 hours have been non-stop.
Where were the 2/3 VLM F50's that always arrive full of Dutch enthusiasts,the light aircraft and the many mil and civvy biz-jets ?

Before the show the official RIAT site listed 36 cancellations,when Saturday came I reckon that number was nearer 80.

Still had a great weekend though !

Location : Mid Cheshire Spotter Watch Member : Yes

Some folks have been complaining about the weather, O.K. so it rained !! But I'm saying nothing about the wind in our corner of the camp site !!!! Eh Mike ??

Subject: Re: opinions of RIAT 2009 2009-07-21, 12:34

Beefsteak wrote:: Some folks have been complaining about the weather, O.K. so it rained !! But I'm saying nothing about the wind in our corner of the camp site !!!! Eh Mike ??

Blimey Charlie ! That was very windy,especially 1st thing every morning(he designs seats at Westland Helicopters BTW).I'm taking clothes pegs next year. Pig

Subject: Re: opinions of RIAT 2009 2009-07-21, 13:19

Flaps wrote:: Just a thought,but I couldn't help notice the absence of arrivals on the Saturday morning between 08.00-10.00,during every IAT/RIAT(18,I think) that I've been to those 2 hours have been non-stop.
Where were the 2/3 VLM F50's that always arrive full of Dutch enthusiasts,the light aircraft and the many mil and civvy biz-jets ?

Before the show the official RIAT site listed 36 cancellations,when Saturday came I reckon that number was nearer 80.

Still had a great weekend though !

Thats because they all arrived Wednesday before everyone got to the P&V area. The heavy bombers all arrived at silly early morning times etc as well.
The chaps at FFD will be asking you to pay to go toilet next year and for the grass to be mowed.

Subject: IAT 2009-07-21, 14:59

As for the weather I dont think that is something we can blame the IAT for, I dont think they have any control over it.
Viper 01

Location : portsmouth Spotter Watch Member : no

Is it just me or does anyone really see the point of RIAT radio? Basically they tell you you're stuck in traffic, no s**t. You are screwed. Much the same as motorway matrix's telling you there are delays at the next junction - exactly what can you do about it?

Location : Sheffield Spotter Watch Member : no

Personally I don't see the point of the radio or the commentary. If they produced a programme at a reasonable price which contained all the relevant information, I could enjoy a whole day without the unwanted imposition of someone else's conversation! Laughing

Location : Naaarwich Spotter Watch Member : No

Personally from the inside I thought it was a good show, the one thing that people came along for was the Vulcan and no-one was disappointed with the performance that it put in.

I know people are griping about things coming in on the Wednesday but looking logically at it there is no real way around that. Planes have to be positioned according to how the organisers want them and getting an E-3 or B-52 down half a taxiway is going to be impossible, they're in a lose lose situation and there is also more to the airshow than the aircraft and the non-aviation movements have to be planned around that as well.

Static wise, I thought it was really well laid out, cones not to close to aircraft and more thought was given to where things went. The only minor critiscism would be it was a tad too long, it certainly went further than previous years despite having fewer planes on show and was a bit much for those who struggle to get about (my dad being one of them). The idea about having planes coming in and out during the show on the southside is good in principle but unworkable in reality. Problem one being health and safety issues, moving the crowd constantly etc and problem two being you'd have a pretty disjointed static line as you'd be forever juggling aircraft about.

Overall I think it was a good show, certainly better than Waddington and flight wise on a par with Kemble. I would have liked to have seen the Sea Vixen solo again and the harriers doing more but obviously thats down to the powers that be. Hopefully with the drawdown in Iraq there'll be a few more planes available next year and now US-Soviet relations seem to be improving there'll be another angle to go from, all we need now is for us to start talking with them! Perhaps the economy will be better too and that will help.... pigs might fly though!!

Finally the point someone made about traders, on Halifax we were down quite significantly on previous years, some obviously being credit crunched and some may have been put off by last years experiences, though with the downpours we had on Sunday we weren't too far off last year's quagmires!

Anyway, just a few observations.

Cheers,

Location : Ramsey, Huntingdon Spotter Watch Member : no

i tell you what they should ban step ladders or have an enclosure for step ladders. the amount of guys that are on step ladders when there already right at the front by the small roped fence is stupid. ifound it very hard this year to get to the front just to take a photo of the aircraft on the ground taxing back. and wind breaks, ban wind breaks there just as big of a problem. Next year im up at 4am to go for breakfast and standing waiting at the gate for 6.30 just so for once i can be at the front to take a decent picture of the a/c on the runway and just so our boys can actually see somethings for once.

but i havent decided on kempsford or fly by campsites yet. i might go for a week next year.

Admin Location : Abu Dhabi

agdickie wrote:

pikey01 wrote:: As a side note of that I had the discussion with several people over the course of the week about how Riat can justify staging the arrivals over 3 days. Simple answer? So they can make more money. On wednesday there was around 30-40 moves, having been attending since 1993 ive known it alot busier. I really feel they could either manage it in one day - two at a push.

There's more to do than just get the aircraft parked though. If everything turned up on the Friday nothing else would get done as the place would be heaving with taxiing aircraft, I suspect. Also don't forget that aircraft have to do practice displays for the FCC and of course there's the issue of when the aircraft can leave for the show. Quite frankly it's staggering what they manage to put on and pack away in such a short space of time.

The guys I spoke to at Brize said they couldnt believe how quiet it was, they have never had a quieter arrivals week, and it could definately be done in 2 days, with all rehearsals thrown in no problem.

The airfield is open 0800 - 2000, there are many many hours where nothing appeared this year, time management is very poor. Wednesday is turning into a "fill the coffers" day at the enthusiasts expense.

Location : Sheffield Spotter Watch Member : no

If RIAT weeded-out some of the space-fillers (and let's face it, a generic C-130 is little more than that), the static park could be smaller. All of the static aircraft could be positioned over Thursday/Friday. The "star" itsms (which would have been things like the Greek Phantom this year, etc.) could be positioned on an active flight line on the public side (and the more mundane aircraft relocated to the other side of the runway). Then as part of the show, these "static" exhibits could start-up, taxy out, line-up for a photo-shoot and a roar of power, while some of the other aircraft fly overhead (ie- as they did some years back). Brilliant spectacle, excellent way for everyone to get good, uncluttered photos, and a good way to ensure that great aircraft aren't simply dumped on the tarmac like a museum exhibit. Easy to do too. Will they ever do it? nope.

Location : Manchester Spotter Watch Member : No

Sheff wrote:: If RIAT weeded-out some of the space-fillers (and let's face it, a generic C-130 is little more than that), the static park could be smaller. All of the static aircraft could be positioned over Thursday/Friday. The "star" itsms (which would have been things like the Greek Phantom this year, etc.) could be positioned on an active flight line on the public side (and the more mundane aircraft relocated to the other side of the runway). Then as part of the show, these "static" exhibits could start-up, taxy out, line-up for a photo-shoot and a roar of power, while some of the other aircraft fly overhead (ie- as they did some years back). Brilliant spectacle, excellent way for everyone to get good, uncluttered photos, and a good way to ensure that great aircraft aren't simply dumped on the tarmac like a museum exhibit. Easy to do too. Will they ever do it? nope.

Trouble is Sheff...one mans trash is another mans treasure, personally for me the F-4 was o.k. but the Algerian herc and the Brazillian Casa were the stars, i was speaking to the crew of the Casa and the said that they were down to bring more stuff but had to downgrade due to the amount of pennies that went into finding the AF A330 (so its the French's fault !!!)

No matter what the RIAT do someone will always have a gripe, thats what us brits do, there isnt another show in europe that comes close to the RIAT, but people have memories, they remember years gone by and make comparisons...thats what us humans do.

Personally for me its overpriced and drwan out over too many days, but for some its a dream, and i respect that, still roll on next year...

Location : nottingham Spotter Watch Member : no

Trouble is Sheff...one mans trash is another mans treasure, personally for me the F-4 was o.k. but the Algerian herc and the Brazillian Casa were the stars, i was speaking to the crew of the Casa and the said that they were down to bring more stuff but had to downgrade due to the amount of pennies that went into finding the AF A330 (so its the French's fault !!!)

Total agreement with every sentence written here,why was the F-4 such a star ? the exact same aircraft was at last years event,when I saw it all I thought was ...Oh great,that AGAIN.....one of the C130 was actually made by me and would get my vote over the same Phanton,in the same scheme.......boring

Subject: IAT 2009-07-22, 07:36

We have to remember who the IAT is put on for and it is mainly joe public, we may class the IAT as ours but the painful truth is that the IAT is not ours.

Joe public half the time wont know the differance between a phontom or an eagle, and these are the people who fill the coffers of the IAT, however you look at it we may have a voice but we are not listerned to because at the end of the day there isnt enough of us, we make up a small percentage of the people attending who will pay of the odds for stuff.

Joe public will be impressed by 13 or so C-130's they wont be able to tell the differance between them apart from some are different colours, but they will be impressed by the fact that there are 13 of them. Were we would be far more impressed if there was a MiG-31 or something like that.

The IAT have a very fine line to walk between joe public and john aircraft spotter, and public is going to win out as there are more of them than us. Quanity vs quality.

I may sound as if I am supporting the IAT this is not the case, I do however think they do somethings well and should be told well done, but they also do somethings badly and when they do them badly they really do them badly.

I think as I have said before they need to make there mind up to what they are an airshow or a fete and stop trying to be all things to all men, and the only reason I can see that they do this is because they want the max number of people through the gate and to make as much money as they can.

Viper01

Location : Sheffield Spotter Watch Member : no

Gary/burnsy you might have misinterpreted what I said. I said the F-4 was an example, that's all. Obviously, the same idea applies to all the aircraft that are considered interesting.

Viper - that's precisely the problem, as we've already said before. RIAT still promote the show as a huge, military spectacular aimed at the serious enthusiast, even though the reality of the show is rather different. As you say, the show is all about raising money which - by definition - means entertaining Joe Public. My gripe is that RIAT could give the enthusiast a better deal too and not necessarily at the expense of Joe Public. Both parties could be suitably entertained but you have to conclude that the way things are drifting, and the way that enthusiasts are shamelessly exploited, RIAT is actually only concerned with Joe Public now. Doesn't have to be like this, but, as I keep saying, while enthusiasts keep showing-up and paying cash (and getting less and less for their money every year) RIAT are unlikely to do things any differently. We really do shoot ourselves in our proverbial feet.