|
There may (will) be trouble ahead... |
|
|
Author |
Message |
Sheff
Location : Sheffield
Spotter Watch Member : no
|
Subject: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-17, 03:53 |
|
|
Interesting and rather predictable stuff here:-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6835280.ece
I dunno how many times I have to keep saying to people that the carriers (and therefore the F-35) are on the thinnest of thin ice... I think we should probably discount the comments about Typhoon (think he's clutching at a proverbial straw there) but the Airbus is an interesting point. I guess it's entirely likely that this will be dumped too, but then it would be no loss - we never needed it in the first place when additional C-130's or C-17's can be purchased as necessary.
Of course, these are just the headlines - it's impossible to imagine what else might get the chop next year. Hold on to your hats ladies!
|
|
|
|
Will Smith
Location : Portsmouth , UK
Spotter Watch Member : no
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-17, 03:59 |
|
|
Thanks for this , very interesting
Cheers
Will Smith
|
|
|
|
Trembler111
Location : Skipton, North Yorkshire
Spotter Watch Member : No
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-17, 05:08 |
|
|
Thanks for that sheff!
Jamie
|
|
|
|
St. John
Location : Newcastle (via Newark, Uxbridge, Sandwich, Boston)
Spotter Watch Member : No
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-17, 05:34 |
|
|
- Sheff wrote:
- the Airbus is an interesting point. I guess it's entirely likely that this will be dumped too, but then it would be no loss - we never needed it in the first place when additional C-130's or C-17's can be purchased as necessary.
I have found it interesting that each of the consortium members have had many contractual opportunities to walk away from this project but have stuck by it time and time again. The underlying reason being that C130s and C17s don't bring jobs to the their countries. I'd really be interested to know at what point the savings made in pure monetary terms outweigh the costs transferred in terms of benefits, lost tax revenue, reduced industrial growth/development etc etc.
|
|
|
|
Sheff
Location : Sheffield
Spotter Watch Member : no
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-17, 06:11 |
|
|
Well this is the fundamental problem with throw-away comments like those made by Mr.Osborne. As he admits, a great deal depends on just how much it costs to walk away from major projects, and whether it's economically better to stick with them. The Airbus saga was (like most Airbus projects) politically-motivated right from the start and it's been a side issue which has kept simmering in the background. In some respects I think the MoD has been quietly hoping that it would collapse, enabling them to go buy more C-130's and C-17's, so I doubt if they'll be heartbroken if the next Government finally abandons it. But the problem is that there might be little appetite to buy any "off the shelf" aircraft to make-up for the lack of Airbuses - and this would leave the RAF in an even worse state than they already are.
The Typhoon business is a new one that hasn't come-up before. I think that by the time the Defence Review actually happens and the cost of cancelling what's left of the programme is taken into account, it will be an easy choice to simply go with the full order as it stands. I would imagine there's some hope that the early Typhoons might be potential re-sale items for export.
The really big, ugly, fundamental issue is the carriers and the F-35. So many people seem to think that the programme is now on a roll and that it's too late to back out. But I disagree. Politicians from both sides are now saying that the carriers are unaffordable, so no matter which party wins the election, the carriers look doomed. I haven't heard so much as one single politician defend the carriers so far. Naturally, as Osborne says, a great deal depends on what it would cost to walk away, but of course there's no reason to suppose that the carriers might not actually be completed but never handed over to the Navy - in the forlorn hope that another country might buy them. Sounds ridiculous but I wouldn't be surprised if this is what actually happens. The basic point is that when both sides of the House seem agreed that the carriers are unaffordable, no government is going to turn-down the opportunity of making a massive cash saving that can be made without any opposition.
As for the F-35, it may well prove to be economically foolish to abandon the planned purchase now, but still I don't think outright cancellation is as unlikely as some people think. The key reason that people used to defend F-35 was because it would supposedly be expensive to purchase another aircraft (or navalise some Typhoons) for the carriers, but if the carriers are abandoned, there's no plausible excuse to defend the F-35 purchase. The RAF doesn't need them - if they did, then it would be cheaper to simply give them the rest of the original planned Typhoon order. The only possible salvation might be the Navy, who will doubtless fight long and hard to reinstate fixed-wing naval air power. My own view is that even the most vociferous Admirals will not be able to sway a near-bankrupt government that cannot see any practical purpose for a sea-borne fleet. Naval power was largely unnecessary for the Gulf Wars and it's equally irrelevant for Afghanistan. Politicians don't think in abstract terms and look at "what if" scenarios for years into the future. They look at recent history and the present day. You can't expect them to see any valid reason for maintaining two huge carriers and a force of F-35's. So unless the Navy fights to the death (and it almost is to the death in this case), then it's a lost cause.
I think the only possible way F-35 might survive depends on how the Defence Review perceives the Harrier force. As we know, there's an appetite to withdraw the whole lot next year, but it's clear that the Review will decide their fate. The temptation must be to abandon F-35 and keep the Harrier for as long as possible - 2025 or longer. The alternative is to get rid of Harriers now and make a short-term saving until F-35 comes along. I'd like to think that the decision will be to abandon F-35 and keep the Harriers as I think that would be the most sensible route given our resources. But I guess there's always the horrible prospect of both programmes being chopped - dumping the Harriers in anticipation of the F-35 and then dumping F-35 too a few months later. Again it sounds absurd but in the present climate it's certainly not impossible.
Strange days indeed!
|
|
|
|
keiron lammond
Location : EGXC
Spotter Watch Member : Nope
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-17, 07:13 |
|
|
Oh for God sake. I was planning on supporting Conservatives at the next election because I'm sick of Brown & Co picking away at our Military, but now it would seem that Labour are the lesser of two evils. Well done Osbourne, you've just lost a vote!
|
|
|
|
Grahame W
Location : Rotherham, South Yorkshire
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 02:43 |
|
|
Surely no-one is surprised by any of this! Whichever government is in power, we will still be in financial difficulties, and still have a long-term (seemingly endless) commitment in Afghanistan. Cuts will have to be made, and it is certain that defence will have to take its share. If anyone thinks that when the Tory Toff is in No.10, he will magically make everything in the defence garden lovely, they are either very young, very naive, or have a very short memory.
|
|
|
|
Unknown
Location : United Kingdom
Spotter Watch Member : No
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 03:08 |
|
|
Scrap Trident
|
|
|
|
Grahame W
Location : Rotherham, South Yorkshire
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 03:50 |
|
|
- Unknown wrote:
- Scrap Trident
Agreed!
|
|
|
|
madhatters 492
Location : Benthall ,Shropshire (on the edge of the Lichfield corridor) and within LFA 9 Home of the DHFS
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 05:54 |
|
|
- Grahame W wrote:
- Unknown wrote:
- Scrap Trident
Agreed! Why?
|
|
|
|
Grahame W
Location : Rotherham, South Yorkshire
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 06:22 |
|
|
- madhatters 492 wrote:
- Grahame W wrote:
- Unknown wrote:
- Scrap Trident
Agreed! Why? Because we need the money! Trident has no relevance to the war we are fighting in Afghanistan. The resources thus freed up could purchase plenty of helicopters and tactical transports which we do desperately need. Even during the cold war, I felt that Trident was a nonsense. It is even more so now.
|
|
|
|
alnewhaven
Location : Edinburgh
Spotter Watch Member : No
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 07:09 |
|
|
- Grahame W wrote:
- madhatters 492 wrote:
- Grahame W wrote:
- Unknown wrote:
- Scrap Trident
Agreed! Why? Because we need the money! Trident has no relevance to the war we are fighting in Afghanistan. The resources thus freed up could purchase plenty of helicopters and tactical transports which we do desperately need. Even during the cold war, I felt that Trident was a nonsense. It is even more so now. I agree. IIRC much of the fleet that liberated the Falklands was disposed of on its return, in order to pay for our 'Big Boys Toy'
|
|
|
|
Street Hawk
Admin
Location : East Midlands
Spotter Watch Member : Yes
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 07:15 |
|
|
Albert Einstein once said "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"
|
|
|
|
madhatters 492
Location : Benthall ,Shropshire (on the edge of the Lichfield corridor) and within LFA 9 Home of the DHFS
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 08:01 |
|
|
- Grahame W wrote:
- madhatters 492 wrote:
- Grahame W wrote:
- Unknown wrote:
- Scrap Trident
Agreed! Why? Because we need the money! Trident has no relevance to the war we are fighting in Afghanistan. The resources thus freed up could purchase plenty of helicopters and tactical transports which we do desperately need. Even during the cold war, I felt that Trident was a nonsense. It is even more so now. That would put the Typhoon in the same logic then, what does the Typhoon bring to the war we are fighting in afghanistan ?
why purchase more Typhoons when helicopters and transports are needed.
As for needing the money we all know which socialist party spent money which we never had.
|
|
|
|
Grahame W
Location : Rotherham, South Yorkshire
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 08:39 |
|
|
what does the Typhoon bring to the war we are fighting in afghanistan
Well, it does have an air-to-ground capability, and so eventually may appear out there, and do some good work. What does Trident bring? ... absolutely nothing!
why purchase more Typhoons when helicopters and transports are needed
Good question! There is a strong argument that we do not need the full quota of Typhoons and the money might be better spent on helicopters, etc. Personally, I am undecided about this.
|
|
|
|
Sheff
Location : Sheffield
Spotter Watch Member : no
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 09:36 |
|
|
You have to look at Trident as a separate issue though. It's not about defence as such, it's more about political clout. There's no way that a UK government would give up a nuclear capability - once you've got it then you keep it. But there is certainly a question as to how or when Trident is replaced or upgraded and it's already high on the political agenda. Trouble is, it would be foolish to imagine that by saving any money on Trident, the money would be used on other defence programmes - it probably would be that clear-cut!
|
|
|
|
Unknown
Location : United Kingdom
Spotter Watch Member : No
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 09:56 |
|
|
That is exactly my point, Trident is as Judi Dench said of James Bond in Goldeneye, a relic of the Cold War, my point is that the money you save in the UK Defence Budget from doing away with Trident could and should be put towards Eurofighters, Helicopters and other items of equipment the Army Soldiers and all Forces in the Afghan Desert really need - Simples............
|
|
|
|
Street Hawk
Admin
Location : East Midlands
Spotter Watch Member : Yes
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 14:21 |
|
|
I've been looking at some data today and thought I might share it with you.....
The following is the Governments Public expenditure by departmental grouping as departmental expenditure limits (DEL).
Current Prices (£ billion) | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Estimated Outturn |
| 2002/03 | 1 | 2003/04 | | 2004/05 | | 2005/06 | | 2006/07 | | 2007/08 | Total Government Resource DEL2
| 229.9 | r | 245.1 | r | 258.8 | r | 277.6 | r | 291.2 | | 313.1 | Of which:
| | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Children, Schools and Families2
| 10.6 | r | 11.9 | r | 12.6 | r | 14.3 | r | 42.1 | | 44.9 | Health
| 57.1 | | 63.6 | | 69.1 | | 76.4 | | 80.4 | | 89.2 | Of which: NHS England
| 55.4 | | 61.9 | | 66.9 | | 74.2 | | 78.5 | | 87.1 |
| | | | | | | | | | | | CLG Local Government3
| 37.4 | | 40.9 | | 43.3 | | 46.2 | | 22.5 | | 22.7 | Home Office2
| 7.3 | r | 7.9 | r | 8.0 | r | 8.3 | r | 8.3 | | 8.7 | Defence4
| 36.5 | | 31.4 | | 31.3 | | 33.5 | r | 33.5 | | 36.7 | Work and Pensions2
| 7.0 | r | 7.8 | r | 8.0 | r | 8.0 | r | 7.9 | | 8.1 | Current Prices (£ billion) |
| Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Estimated Outturn |
| 2002/03 | 1 | 2003/04 | | 2004/05 | | 2005/06 | | 2006/07 | | 2007/08 | Total Government Capital DEL2
| 27.1 | r | 30.5 | r | 32.8 | | 35.2 | r | 38.9 | | 43.9 | Of which:
| | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Children, Schools and Families2
| 2.7 | r | 3.5 | r | 4.1 | r | 4.4 | r | 4.1 | | 5.5 | Health
| 2.1 | | 2.7 | | 2.7 | | 2.2 | | 3.2 | | 3.6 | Of which: NHS England
| 2.1 | | 2.6 | | 2.6 | | 2.2 | | 3.1 | | 3.3 |
| | | | | | | | | | | | CLG Local Government3
| 0.2 | | 0.2 | | 0.3 | | 0.3 | | 0.2 | | 0.1 | Home Office2
| 0.7 | r | 0.7 | r | 0.6 | r | 0.6 | r | 0.6 | | 0.8 | Defence
| 6.1 | | 6.0 | | 6.7 | | 6.4 | | 7.1 | | 8.1 | Work and Pensions
| 0.3 | | 0.2 | | 0.3 | | 0.4 | | 0.2 | | 0.1 | Current Prices (£ billion) |
| Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Estimated Outturn |
| 2002/031 | | 2003/04 | | 2004/05 | | 2005/06 | | 2006/07 | | 2007/08 | Total Government AME2,5
| 160.0 | r | 164.8 | r | 173.0 | r | 187.5 | r | 206.3 | | 221.2 | Of which:
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Children, Schools and Families2
| 7.2 | r | 6.6 | r | 6.3 | r | 8.0 | r | 8.6 | | 10.7 | Health
| 4.7 | | 6.3 | | 6.7 | | 10.1 | | 10.5 | | 14.6 | Of which: NHS England
| 0.1 | | 0.1 | | 0.3 | | 0.8 | | 0.3 | | 0.6 |
| | | | | | | | | | | | CLG Local Government3
| 0.2 | | 0.4 | | 0.5 | | 0.5 | | 1.0 | | 0.9 | Home Office2
| 1.7 | r | - | | - | | - | | 0.3 | | 0.4 | Defence6
| * | | 1.0 | | 0.9 | | 0.9 | | 0.6 | | 0.5 | Work and Pensions2
| 99.9 | r | 103.8 | r | 110.7 | r | 115.2 | r | 119.3 | | 129.6 |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Total Government DEL (RDEL + CDEL)2,7
| 256.9 | r | 275.6 | r | 291.6 | r | 312.8 | r | 330.0 | | 357.1 |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Total Government AME2,5
| 160.0 | r | 164.8 | r | 173.0 | r | 187.5 | r | 206.3 | | 221.2 |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Total Government Spend (RDEL + CDEL + AME)2,6
| 416.9 | r | 440.4 | r | 464.6 | r | 500.3 | r | 536.3 | | 578.2 |
|
|
|
|
Street Hawk
Admin
Location : East Midlands
Spotter Watch Member : Yes
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 14:23 |
|
|
Some more data
Inclusive of non-recoverable VAT at Current Prices (£ million) | | | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 2003/04 | | 2004/05 | | 2005/06 | | 2006/07 | | 2007/08 | Defence Spending
| | 30 861 | | 32 515 | | 33 164 | | 34 045 | | 37 407 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Departmental Expenditure Limits
| | 37 174 | | 38 323 | | 39 751 | | 40 654 | | 43 654 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Resource DEL | | | 31 266 | | 31 798 | | 32 911 | | 33 457 | | 35 709 | of which: | | | | | | | | | | | | | Expenditure on Personnel | | 10 435 | | 10 996 | | 11 255 | | 11 204 | | 11 485 | | of which: for Armed Forces | | 7 974 | | 8 047 | | 8 263 | | 8 423 | | 8 649 | | for Civilians | | 2 461 | | 2 948 | | 2 992 | | 2 781 | | 2 836 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Depreciation/Impairments | | 6 313 | | 5 808 | | 6 587 | | 6 609 | | 6 247 | | Cost of Capital | | 2 770 | | 3 026 | | 3 106 | | 3 242 | | 3 371 | | Equipment Support1
| | 3 804 | | 3 623 | | 3 542 | | 3 793 | | 4 272 | | Stock Consumption2
| | 1 060 | | 1 079 | | 1 039 | | 1 140 | | 1 071 | | Property Management3
| | 1 393 | | 1 509 | | 1 367 | | 1 258 | | 1 523 | | Movements4
| | 491 | | 711 | | 729 | | 774 | | 858 | | Accommodation & Utilities5
| | 643 | | 581 | | 735 | | 786 | | 750 | | Professional Fees6,7
| | 549 | | 565 | | 553 | | 482 | r | 471 | | Fuel8
| | 161 | | 239 | | 369 | | 416 | | 537 | | Hospitality & Entertainment
| | 8 | | 6 | | 5 | | 4 | | 4 | | PFI Service Charges
| | * | | * | | 870 | | 1 148 | | 1 276 | | IT & Communications
| | 738 | | 678 | | 643 | | 719 | | 655 | | Research and Expensed Development
| | 1 011 | | 996 | | 994 | | 988 | | 952 | | Rentals Paid Under Operating Leases
| | 214 | | 229 | | 56 | | 138 | | 152 | | Fixed Assets Written Off/Written On
| | 26 | | - 86 | | - 302 | | 730 | | 870 | | Stock Written Off
| | 528 | | 704 | | 759 | | 95 | | 432 | | Other Costs9
| | 1 121 | r | 1 134 | r | 604 | r | - 69 | r | 783 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Capital DEL | | | 5 908 | | 6 525 | | 6 840 | | 7 197 | | 7 945 | of which: | | | | | | | | | | | | | Expenditure on Fixed Asset Categories | | | | | | | | | | | | Intangible Assets10 | | 1 665 | | 1 580 | | 1 550 | | 1 744 | | 1 756 | | Land and Buildings7 | | 54 | | 388 | r | 31 | | 45 | | 126 | | Single Use Military Equipment7,11 | | 90 | | 435 | r | 402 | | 404 | | 657 | | Plant, Machinery & Vehicles | | 78 | | 124 | | 64 | | 32 | | 36 | | IT & Communications Equipment | | 183 | | 134 | | 180 | | 206 | | 361 | | Assets Under Construction12 | | 3 931 | | 4 335 | | 4 879 | | 5 099 | | 5 450 | | Transport13 | | * | | 73 | | 13 | | 33 | | 55 | | Capital Spares13 | | 581 | | * | | * | | * | | * | | Capital Loan Repayment | | - 28 | | - 25 | | - 53 | | - 8 | | - 10 | | Capital Income14,15 | | - 646 | | - 519 | | - 225 | | - 358 | | - 486 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | AME | | | 1 011 | | 908 | | 890 | | 582 | | 510 | of which: | | | | | | | | | | | | | War Pensions7 | | 1 116 | | 1 110 | | 1 067 | | 1 038 | r | 1 014 | | Other7,16
| | - 105 | | - 202 | | - 177 | | - 456 | r | - 504 |
|
|
|
|
Street Hawk
Admin
Location : East Midlands
Spotter Watch Member : Yes
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 14:24 |
|
|
Footnotes of the above
1. Internal and contracted out costs for equipment repair and maintenance. | 2. Consumption of armament, medical, dental, veterinary, oil, clothing, and general stores. | 3. Estate and facilities management services and costs for buildings' maintenance. | 4. Cost of transportation of freight and personnel. | 5. Charges include rent, rates, gas, electricity, water and sewerage costs. | 6. Fees, such as legal costs, paid to professional organisations. | 7. Minor revisions in 2004/05 and 2006/07 caused by rounding. | 8. Relates to fuel consumption by military vehicles, ships and aircraft. | 9. Other costs can include Grants-in-aid, Exchange rate movements, Provisions, receipts, welfare, medical and legal costs. Research and Expensed | Development, Rentals paid under operating leases and Fixed Asset and Stock written off, that have previously been shown under 'Other Costs', are now | shown separately. | 10. Intangible Assets comprise the development costs of major equipment projects and Intellectual Property Rights. | 11. SUME are assets which only have a military use, such as tanks and fighter aircrafts. Dual use items i.e. those that also have a civilian use are recorded | under the other categories. | 12. Assets Under Construction (AUC) largely consist of major weapons platforms under construction in the Defence Equipment & Support, and a smaller | element of Buildings under construction. Once construction is complete, those platforms will transfer to the relevant Top Level Budget holder as SUME on | their Balance Sheets. | 13. From 2004/05 Transport has been recorded as a separate category and Capital Spares has been removed as a category, with the costs previously | recorded here being incorporated into Transport or SUME. | 14. Redemption of QinetiQ preference shares refers to the proceeds received from the partial redemption of the redeemable preference shares during | 2004/05. | 15. Capital income is receipts for the sale of fixed assets. | 16. Under Stage 2 of RAB, this category now contains only demand led payments, such as cash release and cost of capital credit on nuclear provisions and | QinetiQ loan repayments. |
|
|
|
|
Street Hawk
Admin
Location : East Midlands
Spotter Watch Member : Yes
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 14:26 |
|
|
This table includes expenditure on Conflict Prevention (RfR2).
| | RAB Stage 2 | Inclusive of non-recoverable VAT at Current Prices (£ million) | | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | | 2003/04 | | 2004/05 | | 2005/06 | | 2006/07 | | 2007/08 | Departmental Expenditure Limits (DEL) | 37 174 | | 38 323 | | 39 751 | | 40 654 | | 43 654 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Request for Resources 1: PROVISION OF DEFENCE CAPABILITY | 35 681 | | 37 211 | | 38 484 | | 38 858 | | 40 622 | | | | | | | | | | | | Resource DEL | 30 033 | | 30 860 | | 31 855 | | 32 009 | | 33 513 | of which: | | | | | | | | | | | Commander-in-Chief Fleet2
| 3 242 | | 3 569 | | 3 548 | | 2 148 | | 2 185 | | General Officer Commanding (Northern Ireland)
| 649 | | 626 | | 580 | | 389 | | * | | Commander-in-Chief Land Command3
| 5 079 | | 5 341 | | 5 632 | | 4 322 | | 6 495 | | Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief RAF Strike Command
| 3 385 | | 3 503 | | 4 043 | | 1 924 | | * | | Commander-in-Chief Air Command4
| * | | * | | * | | * | | 2 635 | | Chief of Joint Operations
| 524 | | 493 | | 570 | | 391 | | 475 | | Chief Defence Logistics5
| 7 758 | r | 7 452 | | 7 588 | r | 12 788 | | * | | Defence Equipment & Support6
| * | | * | | * | | * | | 16 236 | | 2nd Sea Lord/Commander-in-Chief Naval Home Command
| 693 | | 763 | | 778 | | * | | * | | Adjutant General (Personnel and Training Command)5
| 1 743 | r | 1 778 | | 1 924 | | 1 576 | | * | | Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief RAF Personnel and Training Command
| 995 | | 1 125 | | 904 | | 762 | | * | | Central5
| 2 695 | | 3 136 | r | 2 458 | | 2 172 | | 2 317 | | Defence Estates7
| * | | * | | 1 056 | | 2 692 | | 2 628 | | Defence Procurement Agency5
| 2 850 | r | 2 568 | | 2 272 | | 2 321 | r | * | | Science Innovation Technology
| 420 | | 506 | | 502 | | 524 | | 542 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Capital DEL | 5 648 | | 6 351 | | 6 629 | | 6 849 | | 7 109 | of which: | | | | | | | | | | | Commander-in-Chief Fleet2
| 37 | | 17 | | 7 | | 14 | | 29 | | General Officer Commanding (Northern Ireland)
| 43 | | 28 | | 4 | | 2 | | * | | Commander-in-Chief Land Command3
| 21 | | 153 | | 47 | | 75 | | 123 | | Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief RAF Strike Command
| 40 | | 27 | | 10 | | 7 | | * | | Commander-in-Chief Air Command4
| * | | * | | * | | * | | 13 | | Chief of Joint Operations
| 22 | | 24 | | 19 | | 4 | | 34 | | Chief Defence Logistics
| 1 210 | | 1 121 | | 1 045 | | 1 243 | | * | | Defence Equipment & Support6
| * | | * | | * | | * | | 6 661 | | 2nd Sea Lord/Commander-in-Chief Naval Home Command
| 28 | | 23 | | 11 | | * | | * | | Adjutant General (Personnel and Training Command)
| 41 | | 26 | | 17 | | 15 | | * | | Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief RAF Personnel and Training Command
| 18 | | 24 | | 13 | | 11 | | * | | Central
| - 96 | | 322 | | - 44 | | 44 | | 41 | | Defence Estates7
| * | | * | | 274 | | 140 | | 208 | | Defence Procurement Agency5
| 4 284 | r | 4 586 | | 5 226 | r | 5 294 | r | * | | Science Innovation Technology
| * | | * | | * | | * | | * | | | | | | | | | | | | | Request for Resources 2: CONFLICT PREVENTION
| 1 493 | | 1 112 | | 1 266 | r | 1 796 | r | 3 032 | | (not broken down by Top Level Budget) | | | | | | | | | | Resource DEL | 1 233 | | 938 | | 1 055 | r | 1 448 | | 2 196 | Capital DEL | 260 | | 174 | | 211 | | 348 | | 836 | | | | | | | | | | | | Annually Managed Expenditure (AME)
| 1 011 | | 908 | | 890 | | 582 | | 510 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Request for Resources 1: PROVISION OF DEFENCE CAPABILITY8 | - 105 | | - 202 | | - 177 | | - 456 | r | -504 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Commander-in-Chief Fleet2
| - 2 | | * | | 8 | | * | | * | | General Officer Commanding (Northern Ireland)
| * | | * | | * | | * | | * | | Commander-in-Chief Land Command3
| * | | * | | * | | * | | * | | Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief RAF Strike Command
| * | | * | | * | | * | | * | | Commander-in-Chief Air Command4
| * | | * | | * | | * | | * | | Chief of Joint Operations
| 5 | | - 3 | | 7 | | 9 | | * | | Chief Defence Logistics
| - 66 | | 26 | | 3 | | 67 | | * | | Defence Equipment & Support6
| * | | * | | * | | * | | 169 | | 2nd Sea Lord/Commander-in-Chief Naval Home Command
| * | | * | | * | | * | | * | | Adjutant General (Personnel and Training Command)
| * | | * | | * | | * | | * | | Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief RAF Personnel and Training Command
| * | | 2 | | * | | * | | * | | Central
| 6 | | 2 | | - 2 | | * | | * | | Defence Estates7
| * | | * | | * | | * | | -673 | | Defence Procurement Agency
| - 49 | | - 228 | | - 193 | | - 545 | | * | | Science Innovation Technology
| * | | * | | * | | * | | * | | Not Allocated
| * | | * | | * | | 13 | | * | | | | | | | | | | | | | Request for Resources 2: CONFLICT PREVENTION
| * | | * | | * | | * | | * | | | | | | | | | | | | | Request for Resources 3: WAR PENSIONS & ALLOWANCES, etc
| 1 116 | | 1 110 | | 1 067 | | 1 038 | r | 1 014 | Source: MOD Directorate of Performance and Analysis | 1. Full TLB definitions are available in the Glossary at the back of this publication. | 2. C-in-C Fleet TLB includes the former 2nd Sea Lord/C-in-C Naval Home Command TLB from 2006/07. | 3. Land Command includes the former Adjutant General (Personnel and Training Command). | 4. Air Command is an amalgamation of 'Air Officer Commanding in Chief RAF Personnel and Training Command' and 'RAF Strike Command'. | 5. Revisions within RDEL and CDEL for the years 2003/04 to 2006/07 are caused by the attributions of costs previously classed as 'Not Allocated'. Totals for 2006/07 have been adjusted for consistency to the MOD Annual Report and Accounts. | 6. Defence Equipment & Support was created from the amalgamation of the 'Defence Logistic Organisation' and 'Defence Procurement Agency'. | 7. The 'Defence Estates' TLB was formed on 1 April 2005 . This was formerly part of 'Central' TLB. There is no historic data for this new TLB. | 8. AME for 2003/04 onwards includes accounting charges relating to nuclear decommissioning, loan interest and cost of capital charges for self financing | public corporations. The negative AME figures arise from the cash release from the nuclear decommissioning provision and the cost of capital charge | calculated on a net balance sheet liability (as opposed to net assets). |
|
|
|
|
Street Hawk
Admin
Location : East Midlands
Spotter Watch Member : Yes
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 14:27 |
|
|
This bit is some what juicy
Inclusive of non-recoverable VAT at Current Prices (£ million) | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | Outturn | | | 2003/04 | | 2004/05 | | 2005/06 | 1 | 2006/07 | 2 | 2007/08 | 3 | Total Defence Output Cost
| 33 415 | | 31 222 | | 33 325 | | 32 911 | r | 35 209 | | | | | | | | | | | | | OBJECTIVE 1: Achieving success in the tasks we undertake
| 3 481 | | 3 390 | | 3 564 | | 3 711 | | 4 050 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Operations | 1 233 | | 938 | | 1 040 | | 1 443 | | 2 196 | | Other Military Tasks | 1 659 | | 1 764 | | 1 698 | | 1 525 | | 1 086 | | Contributing to the Community | 360 | | 395 | | 494 | | 397 | | 460 | | Helping to Build a Safer World | 229 | | 293 | | 332 | | 346 | | 309 | | | | | | | | | | | | | OBJECTIVE 2: Being ready to respond to the tasks that might arise4
| 26 777 | | 24 934 | | 26 601 | | 26 292 | | 28 320 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Royal Navy | 9 990 | | 7 310 | | 7 942 | | 7 037 | | 7 586 | | Aircraft Carriers | 293 | | 347 | | 354 | | 339 | | 377 | | Frigates & Destroyers | 1 709 | | 1 548 | | 1 355 | | 1 619 | | 1 491 | | Smaller Warships | 284 | | 486 | | 413 | | 390 | | 360 | | Amphibious Ships | 339 | | 340 | | 290 | | 339 | | 414 | | Strategic Sealift | 3 | | 38 | | 41 | | 46 | | 34 | | Fleet Support Ships | 348 | | 408 | | 344 | | 366 | | 304 | | Survey & Other Vessels | 157 | | 102 | | 72 | | 94 | | 153 | | Naval Aircraft | 1 393 | | 1 193 | | 1 139 | | 1 083 | | 1 123 | | Submarines | 4 862 | | 2 307 | | 3 393 | | 2 204 | | 2 783 | | Royal Marines | 604 | | 540 | | 540 | | 557 | | 548 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Army | 8 723 | | 9 252 | | 10 479 | | 10 706 | | 11 261 | | Field Units | 6 372 | | 7 517 | | 8 492 | | 8 822 | | 9 671 | | Other Units | 2 350 | | 1 736 | | 1 987 | | 1 884 | | 1 590 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Royal Air Force | 7 002 | | 6 825 | | 6 848 | | 6 987 | | 7 573 | | Combat Aircraft5 | 4 519 | | 4 577 | | 4 125 | | 3 692 | | 4 193 | | Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance Aircraft (ISTAR)6 | 350 | | 489 | | 606 | | 613 | | 899 | | Tankers, Transport and Communications Aircraft | 1 040 | | 1 028 | | 1 247 | | 1 211 | | 1 025 | | Future Capability | 339 | | 15 | | 20 | | 44 | | 86 | | Other Aircraft and RAF Units | 753 | | 716 | | 850 | | 1 427 | | 1 371 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Centre Grouping | 1 063 | | 1 547 | | 1 332 | | 1 562 | | 1 899 | | Joint and Multinational Operations | 148 | | 523 | | 474 | | 425 | | 761 | | Centrally Managed Military Support | 236 | | 289 | | 400 | | 367 | | 606 | | Maintenance of War Reserve Stocks | 679 | | 734 | | 458 | | 770 | | 532 | | | | | | | | | | | | | OBJECTIVE 3: Building for the future
| 3 156 | | 2 899 | | 3 160 | | 2 907 | | 2 838 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Research & Expensed Development | 1 007 | | 996 | | 1 041 | | 1 026 | | 974 | | Equipment Programme | 2 149 | | 1 903 | | 2 119 | | 1 881 | | 1 865 | | Source: MOD Annual Report & Accounts | 1. The increased Total Defence Output Cost figure for 2005/06 reflects: an increased cost incurred following the change in discount rate, from 3.5% to 2.2%, applied to the Department's provisions for nuclear decommissioning of £1.1 billion; and movements in other operating costs, including staff, impairments, and depreciation as a result of the Quinquennial review of fixed assets of £1.4 billion offset by receipts from the sale of QinetiQ shares. | 2. With effect from April 2006, intangible and tangible fixed assets were transferred from Top Level Budgets (TLBs) to Single Balance Sheet Owners (SBSOs). The related operating costs (e.g. depreciation and cost of capital charge) have been apportioned to outputs by the SBSOs using the percentage of costs attributed to the Management Grouping in 2005/06 as a basis for the apportionment. Where Front Line TLBs had previously allocated some asset costs directly to final outputs, the methodology used in 2006/07 has resulted in some variances in costs attributed to final outputs from those reported in 2005/06. Restructuring within RAF Strike Command resulted in a more accurate alignment of costs to outputs. | 3. A working group, consisting of all TLBs and the SBSOs, was set up in 2007/08 to review the apportionment methods used. The aim was to improve consistency in the costing of final outputs; some of the variances between 2006/07 and 2007/08 are as a result of changes agreed by the group. The increase in Total Defence Output is as a result of: Operational costs due to continuing commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan £0.75Billion and costs in respect of Typhoon £0.5Billion, Apache helicopters £0.3Billion and increases to provisions in respect of nuclear decommissioning £0.5Billion. | 4. The costs of delivering the military capability to meet Objective 2 are analysed among force elements of the front line commands, including joint force units where these have been established, and a small number of centrally managed military support activities. In addition to the direct operating costs of the front line units, they include the attributed costs of logistical and personnel support. In common with all Objectives, these also contain a share of the costs of advising ministers and accountability to Parliament, and apportioned overheads for head office functions and centrally provided services. | 5. Combines former titles of Strike/Attack and Offensive Support Aircraft and Defensive and Surveillance Aircraft. | 6. Formerly Reconnaissance and Maritime Patrol Aircraft. |
|
|
|
|
Street Hawk
Admin
Location : East Midlands
Spotter Watch Member : Yes
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 14:29 |
|
|
| Tangible Fixed Assets | Current Prices (£ million) | | Land & | Plant & | Transport | IT & Comms | SUME2 | AUC3 | AUC3 | Intangible | Invest- | Total | | Buildings | Machinery | | Equipment | | SUME | Other | Assets | ments | Assets | Top Level Budget4 Total
| 19 774 | 1 753 | 4 611 | 1 059 | 35 767 | 11 141 | 3 826 | 26 692 | 497 | 105 120 | Commander-in-Chief Fleet5 | - | 1 | 1 | 4 | - | - | 41 | - | - | 47 | General Officer Commanding (Northern Ireland) | - | - | 2 | - | - | - | - | - | - | 2 | Commander-in-Chief Land Command | 18 | - | 3 | 5 | 4 | - | 141 | - | - | 171 | Commander-in-Chief Air Command6
| - | - | - | 1 | - | - | 31 | - | - | 32 | Chief of Joint Operations | 24 | 3 | 3 | 2 | - | 1 | 45 | 9 | - | 87 | Defence Equipment & Support7 | 46 | 1 746 | 4 600 | 1 045 | 35 763 | 11 140 | 2 374 | 26 683 | - | 83 398 | Central | - | 2 | 1 | 2 | - | - | 82 | - | 497 | 583 | Defence Estates | 19 686 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | 1 112 | - | - | 20 800 | Source: MOD Directorate of Performance and Analysis | 1. Figures provided as at 31 March 2008 are taken from MOD Fixed Assets Register. Figures relate to the net book value of the MOD fixed assets. | The net value of an asset is equal to its original cost (its book value) minus depreciation and amortisation costs. | 2. SUME refers to Single Use Military Equipment.
| 3. AUC refers to Assets Under Construction.
| 4. The reason for the relatively small amounts in TLBs is due to the Fixed Assets not having been transferred to the single balance sheet holder mainly because the TLBs cannot agree on the asset value or there are other difficulties over the paper work. If the system works well they should reduce to zero.
| 5. C-in-C Fleet TLB includes the former 2nd Sea Lord/C-in-C Naval Home Command TLB from 2006/07.
| 6. Air Command is an amalgamation of 'Air Officer Commanding in Chief RAF Personnel and Training Command' and 'RAF Strike Command'.
| 7. Defence Equipment & Support was created from the amalgamation of the 'Defence Logistic Organisation' and 'Defence Procurement Agency'.
|
|
|
|
|
Street Hawk
Admin
Location : East Midlands
Spotter Watch Member : Yes
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 14:30 |
|
|
VAT exclusive at Current Prices (£ million) | SIC(92) Group | | | 1990/91 | 1995/96 | | 1997/98 | 1998/99 | 1999/00 | 2000/01 | | 2001/02 | Total | | | 8 870 | 10 030 | | 11 200 | 12 170 | 11 480 | 12 060 | || | 12 760 | Solid Fuels | 10 | | 10 | 10 | | - | - | - | - | || | - | Petroleum Products | 23.2 | | 390 | 290 | | 300 | 230 | 240 | 340 | || | 370 | Gas, Electricity and Water Supply | 40-41 | | 250 | 230 | | 270 | 260 | 250 | 230 | || | 210 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Metals | 27,28 | | * | 80 | | 140 | 180 | 200 | 200 | || | 180 | Chemicals | 24 | | * | 60 | | 40 | 50 | 40 | 60 | || | 60 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Other Mechanical and Marine Engineering | 29.1-29.5 | | 800 | 240 | | 370 | 270 | 220 | 210 | || | 220 | Weapons & Ammunition | 29.6 | | 750 | 400 | | 750 | 880 | 830 | 790 | || | 690 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Data Processing Equipment | 30 | | 280 | 640 | | 80 | 180 | 120 | 140 | || | 180 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Other Electrical Engineering | 31 | | 170 | 270 | | 180 | 250 | 210 | 190 | || | 180 | Electronics & Precision Instruments | 32,33 | | 1 810 | 1 090 | | 1 320 | 1 400 | 950 | 1 000 | || | 1 110 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Motor Vehicles and Parts | 34, 35.2, 35.4, 35.5 | | 320 | 480 | | 280 | 390 | 330 | 180 | || | 170 | Shipbuilding and Repairing | 35.1 | | 780 | 770 | | 790 | 1 180 | 1 090 | 1 100 | || | 1 230 | Aircraft and Spacecraft | 35.3 | | 2 130 | 2 060 | | 2 360 | 2 220 | 2 240 | 2 390 | || | 2 540 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Food | 15 | | 160 | 120 | | 110 | 120 | 120 | 120 | || | 140 | Textiles, Leather Goods and Clothing | 17,18,19 | | 140 | 110 | | 130 | 130 | 140 | 120 | || | 120 | Office Furniture | 36.1 | | * | 70 | | 110 | 60 | 60 | 60 | || | 70 | Stationery | 21,22 | | * | 120 | | 30 | 40 | 30 | 40 | || | 40 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Construction | 45 | | * | 1 280 | | 1 060 | 1 070 | 1 040 | 1 070 | || | 1 100 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Postage | 64.1 | | * | 10 | | 20 | 20 | 40 | 40 | || | 40 | Telecommunications | 64.2 | | * | 120 | | 180 | 290 | 260 | 210 | || | 320 | | | | | | | | | | | | | Other Production Industries1 | nes3 | | 370 | 270 | | 900 | 1 080 | 1 140 | 1 440 | || | 1 520 | Other Industries and Services2 | nes3 | | 510 | 1 300 | | 1 770 | 1 860 | 1 940 | 2 140 | || | 2 280 | Source: DASA (Economic Statistics) | 1. This category includes expenditure on equipment in other manufacturing industries, as well as the business and administration, education and training and | operational support sectors. | 2. This category includes expenditure on services in the business and administration, education and training and operational support sectors. It also includes | expenditure on road and rail transport and freight. | 3. Not elsewhere specified. |
|
|
|
|
Street Hawk
Admin
Location : East Midlands
Spotter Watch Member : Yes
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... 2009-09-18, 14:32 |
|
|
Thousands | Percentage | | 2002/03 | 2003/04 | 3 | 2004/05 | 3 | 2005/06 | 4 | 2006/07 | | 2002/03 | 2003/04 | | 2004/05 | | 2005/06 | | 2006/07 | United Kingdom | 135 | 140 | | 135 | | 145 | r | 135 | | 100 | 100 | | 100 | | 100 | | 100 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | England | 118 | 126 | r | 123 | r | 130 | r | 126 | | 89 | 89 | | 90 | r | 91 | | 92 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | East of England | 13 | 12 | | 10 | | 11 | | 8 | | 10 | 9 | | 7 | | 8 | | 6 | East Midlands | 3 | 3 | | 3 | | 5 | | 4 | | 2 | 2 | | 2 | | 3 | | 3 | London | 10 | 10 | | 13 | | 9 | | 9 | | 8 | 7 | | 10 | | 6 | | 7 | North East | 2 | 3 | | 2 | | 2 | | 3 | | 2 | 2 | | 1 | | 2 | | 2 | North West | 14 | 17 | | 15 | | 15 | | 17 | | 11 | 12 | | 11 | | 10 | r | 13 | South East | 36 | 36 | | 37 | | 41 | r | 38 | | 27 | 26 | | 27 | | 29 | r | 28 | South West | 30 | 35 | | 35 | | 37 | | 37 | | 23 | 25 | | 26 | | 26 | | 27 | West Midlands | 6 | 6 | | 5 | | 5 | | 7 | | 5 | 4 | | 4 | | 4 | | 5 | Yorkshire & Humber | 4 | 4 | | 3 | | 4 | | 4 | | 3 | 3 | | 2 | | 3 | | 3 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Scotland | 10 | 10 | | 9 | | 9 | | 7 | | 8 | 7 | | 7 | | 6 | | 5 | Wales | 2 | 3 | | 2 | | 2 | | 2 | | 2 | 2 | | 1 | | 1 | | 1 | Northern Ireland | 2 | 2 | | 2 | | 2 | | 2 | | 2 | 1 | | 1 | | 1 | | 1 | Source: DASA(Economic Statistics) | 1. Using the average UK turnover per full time equivalent may neglect potential differences in regional turnover per head. However, regional turnover per head at the level of SIC used in the employment estimates is not currently available from the ONS: the employment estimates for a number of industries/ products use 3 digit SIC level data, and the ONS only publish (limited) regional data derived from the Annual Business Inquiry (ABI) data at 2 digit level. The impact of using national employment averages is not likely to produce a significantly different output than if regional employment averages were available. | 2. Estimates have been provided from 2002-03 onwards to reflect the available expenditure data derived from the MOD adminstrative systems that were introduced with Resource Accounting and Budgeting. | 3. The revisions prior to 2005-06 are due to the correction of some very minor rounding anomalies. | 4. The revisions to the regional employment numbers for 2005-06 reflect updated information relating to industry turnover from the Office for National Statistics, which only became available after the publication of UKDS 07. This is turn has resulted in very minor adjustments to the percentage breakdowns. |
|
|
|
|
Sponsored content
|
Subject: Re: There may (will) be trouble ahead... |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There may (will) be trouble ahead... |
|
|