Civvi Police using the new Terrorism ammendments.

Location : Solihull

Hi guys,

On MSF/Touchdown today there are reports of 2 people being arrested and detained for 45minutes under the new terrorism law ammendments for taking photographs at Coningsby by the Civvi police.

Does anyone know if the reports are true and whereabouts on the perimeter they were?

Thanks

Andy

Admin Location : Birmingham B17

Hi Andy how are you.Jim here.I have not heard anything at all.Bit strange that one.

Jim Maher

Admin Location : East Midlands Spotter Watch Member : Yes

Was told today by security police at Mildenhall that Weapons were drawn at Lakenheath last week by people putting ladders up at the fence. I was taking a picture of the WC-135 when a Police Car pulled up on the otherside of the fence. I showed him my Spotterwatch Card.

He told us that security was increased last week at both bases and that the road to the church from Viewing area is now gated and only the footpath is the only right of way.

The protected land that people used as a shortcut from the viewing area to the main road has now been replaced with a higher fence and 2 lines of barbed wire.

So come home time we went to Lakenheath to see the new changes.

BTW what does the purple flag mean, as it was flying at all the main gates of Mildenhall and Lakenheath.

Admin Location : East Midlands Spotter Watch Member : Yes

This alleged incident was done under S44 of the Terrorism Act.

Wonder if these guys were spotterwatch members?

However for those that go spotting read here http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/issues/6-free-speech/s44-terrorism-act/index.shtml.

So if you are unfortunant to be stopped by Civilian Police, at least you know what your rights are.

I always carry my Spotterwatch Card on me.

Location : Norfolk Spotter Watch Member : No

This country is getting more annoying all the time. I was talking to a railway photographer the other day and he got cautioned for taking photos of a train! The BTP wanted him to delete the photos but he refused. Taking photos of trains is a terror threat now apparantly! Heaven forbid if we ever get a real enemy again!
About time we the British people stand up for our rights!

Subject: Re: Civvi Police using the new Terrorism ammendments. 2009-03-09, 13:47

how do i join this spotter watch? this countrys laws are a joke its always the same you cant do this you cant do that im fed up with it all i like trains and planes i worked on BR for 5 years down on the tracks i took loads of pics when i was there -and i work in a big police station how th hell can i be a terrorist????? i was cleared by the home office its always some one else that ruins it for all of us aka 911 ect :evil:

Location : LHR Spotter Watch Member : No

tornadopaul wrote:: how do i join this spotter watch? this countrys laws are a joke its always the same you cant do this you cant do that im fed up with it all i like trains and planes i worked on BR for 5 years down on the tracks i took loads of pics when i was there -and i work in a big police station how th hell can i be a terrorist????? i was cleared by the home office its always some one else that ruins it for all of us aka 911 ect :evil:

I do 44's on the railway all the time ( btp), only done 1 spotter who went wandering off onto the cess by the 3rd rail, needless to say he got stuck on for tresspass. same difference for train / plane spotters these days!.

He wasn't cautoned for taking piccies of trains as it's not an offence, ( if he was then he did something else to get it and he'd have to admit guilt for that offence too ); so no caution is applicable. Cause start taking piccies of Kitty 1T or a DRS freighter from Sellafield; and you could be spoken to , however still not an offence per se.
Unless your standing at Boscombe or another designated place ( i won't go into all of them ), then nowadays your not always gonna get a tug.

If your in the Job, then i'm sure you'll know that not every terrorist is what the public perceive them to be. The IRA had an black male on several ops as was one of the 4 on the tube and the Exeter one was a white male, let's not forget the women too.!.

Just as our politicians send people to fight wars, 'terrorists' eventually have to be spoken to and end up in ' power' in some way or another, NI, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the rest of the region, and the ex Russian states. If you look at the deals being done around the world in the name of peace.

Anyway, going slightly off topic, ye you are entitled to a copy of the stop form, but it is down to the PC as to whether they give you it there and then. You have a year in which to apply for a copy of the form. Also the search covers both vehicles and people, and S.44 in itself is not a arrestable power, it is only a search power, otherwise you'd be looking at S.43 probably. In what is seen as just number crunching to you and me, may seem as 'spying' to another, the Touchdown 12 spring to mind, different laws, same principle.

If you are stopped just go along with the flow, it's quite painless, and i'm sure your local council knows more about you than the old bill do!.

In a search of a person, only what's called JOG ( Jacket, Outer coat, Gloves ) may be removed for searches under Terrorism, drugs, weapons, stolen articles. there is a S.60 search which just requires a Superintendents authority and this is put in place at places like demo's and public order events where intel suggest that a group of people may carry weapons, etc.

have fun, and remember, it's a hobby; it's not illegal...

http://www.sirimo.co.uk/media/UKPhotographersRights.pdf

Moderator Location : Between Coventry and Leicester

Takeing of ladders is going equipt in the eyes of the law. scaleing fences can get you shot or arrested at a mil base.

there is no problem with standing outside a base.

climbing the fence or putting ladders up the fence will get you in trouble .

Subject: Re: Civvi Police using the new Terrorism ammendments. 2009-03-09, 15:34

wel thanks for that headset at least i know where i stand now i'll pass that info on to some train spotters i know it would be a real shame if they brought out a law wich stops you taking photo's of your fav plane or train wich is what most of us get enjoyment out of and dont break any laws doing it it's just a hobby somthing to pass the time i just find it exciting and get a buzz be it on rails or in the air .

Location : Lincs

vulcan558 wrote:: Takeing of ladders is going equipt in the eyes of the law. scaleing fences can get you shot or arrested at a mil base.

there is no problem with standing outside a base.

climbing the fence or putting ladders up the fence will get you in trouble .

It doesn't quite work like that. There are strict rules of engagement in force in the UK and especially for those carrying arms on guard duty. Simply scaling a fence will not get you shot. Arrested or detained, yes. Remember that the serviceman/woman is accountable for his/her actions. Take for example the recent cutting of fences by protesters at airports in the UK.

During Kosovo in 1999 and Iraq 2003 protesters scaled and cut fences to get onto mil bases in the UK. In some cases they got under B-52s and damaged vehicles and other equipment. At one point they even flew a hot air balloon over Fairford to drop leaflets. None of those actions will result in being shot.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/england/2851359.stm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1122004.ece

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/feb/28/iraq.politics

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2834685.stm

During 1999 they hung anti-war banners on B-52s.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/321716.stm

The use of ladders is fairly straight forward. If your ladder is touching any part of the fence then you can set off either alarms or attract the attention of base security. It all comes down to the ownership of the land on which your ladder stands. For example at RAF Coningsby. The farmers allow the use of their land within reason. If you are using an A frame ladder and are touching no part of the fence then it is acceptable. The problems start when people tamper with the barbed wire/fence etc because their ladder is not tall enough. For example belts, ropes, string and wire ties at Coningsby in order to get lens through the gaps. All bases are different and not all landowners welcome or tolerate people on their land.

TJ

Location : Bomber County Spotter Watch Member : No

I think is easy for us to blame the 'civy' police all of the time for over-reacting. A lot of the time we don't know the full circumstances. If you put a ladder up against a fence then you are asking for trouble arn't you? Its not your fence, hence the possiblity of criminal damage or attempt criminal damage etc......

As for knowing your rights, the worse thing you can do is tell a police officer their job. Let them get on with it, remember, the bases are there for a purpose its a bonus that we all enjoy the aircraft in them!

Location : Coningsby Spotter Watch Member : NO

Look, But don't Touch :) :)

Location : Coventry Spotter Watch Member : No

Guys

I have read this thread with great interest. Firstly, I think people need to remember that we are currently at the 'severe level' of security state. Secondly, I would find it highly doubtful that anybody had weapons drawn on them unless they were perceived as a serious threat with no alternative but to take this course of action because once you have gone to this level there is only one alternative if the subject refuses to cooperate.

I appreciate that the 'spotterwatch' scheme is a good idea but it won't stop you from being stopped and asked what you are doing at the airfield because as you can imagine, technically 'anybody' could join this scheme.

I have seen many people in the past with ladders that they do put near the fences, which of course raise awareness to that individual. Maybe a suggestion and don't take ladders?

You are generally correct in saying that the police cannot make you delete images but they can seize camera gear for examination etc... Military aircraft spotting can be classed as a form of spying, as after all they are our countries front line of defence. Over the years, it has become accepted that it is a hobby of alot of people that we are allowed to continue with.

Best bit of advice that can be given, is to cooperate with the police when they ask your details. Don't start spouting on about your human rights etc because technically we are breaking the law by what we do. I mean would you stand there taking pictures of the SAS in training?

Chris EVATT

Location : North Yorkshire

Good post I reckon. I always think that if you've got nothing to hide and you are polite and co-operative if approached by the poilce (and they are with you), then there's nothing to worry about. I enjoy the thrill of watching the aircraft and I occasionally take photographs that I don't post on the internet so there is nothing sinister or unlawful about that. I think that statement probably applies to lots of aircraft enthusiasts and photographers. Then again, I don't use ladders, leave litter, park illegally, stray across farmland, cut holes in fences or speed on the approach roads like some people seemingly do. Especially the speeding passers-by ( ie: the non-spotters). I often spend a day in the lay-by at the New York end and in the space of a few hours could note at least a dozen drivers who go past at speeds around 100mph. If I was a Police Officer I'd have a lot of work to do, to say nothing of the breaches of security that I might be looking out for.

I think they've got a job to do and it's our collective responsibility not to abuse the privilige of being allowed to indulge a hobby, so long as everybody acts peacefully and with good grace and humour.

Location : Messingham Spotter Watch Member : No

Agree on the morons speeding at the New York end at CBY :affraid:

I've been asked to move on at the Heath by the Yanks..boy scout with weapon, had my registration taken in John's Field by the British civvies and had friendly banter with civvies at CBY. The Yanks wound me up the most. At the end of the day I've always politely followed the instructions issued to me. I'd hate to get to a situation where our hobby was in danger of becoming so restricted it was impossible to enjoy.

Location : Bourne, Sth. Lincs. Spotter Watch Member : no

Back in the '60's myself and some mates were detained at Bentwaters for hours. The civvie police came from within the base with US backup. They searched our cars, quizzed us on our log books and confiscated binoculars and other items.
There was also a story going round that someone had been shot at by MPs at Alconbury while trying to get serials from aircraft that were on the firedump.
Just be careful what headwear you choose this summer.

Location : Immingham Spotter Watch Member : yes

OK GUYS,
The word is there was no one arrested at cby someone heard a rumour and its been blown out of all proportion.....you can still go the the fence and enjoy your hobby with out looking for mister plod.........

Location : T' North Spotter Watch Member : No

Only ever seen them at the New York end of CBY, and all he wanted was to make us aware not to get/park too close to the verge.

Same as anything really, a bit of common sense and theres nothing to worry about.

Location : boswell lincs Spotter Watch Member : yes

The cops are not going to stop and search for no reason they must have had some intel on some thing going on, dont forget some prat gave the police stacks of paperwork for every action they take, it must have been bewildering for those concerned, but spare a thought for the cop who is still righting it up to appease some pleb in an office, it hasn't changed since the old man was in , typed in triplicate.As for the speeders and light dodgers at conningsby and Waddington its time for some positive action, why didn't the camera van at waddo move out of bracebridge last thursday and catch the morons hammering it near the spotting area, safety camera my back side revenue camera more like it

Subject: Re: Civvi Police using the new Terrorism ammendments. 2009-03-17, 05:49

gonk wrote:: The cops are not going to stop and search for no reason they must have had some intel on some thing going on, dont forget some prat gave the police stacks of paperwork for every action they take, it must have been bewildering for those concerned, but spare a thought for the cop who is still righting it up to appease some pleb in an office, it hasn't changed since the old man was in , typed in triplicate.As for the speeders and light dodgers at conningsby and Waddington its time for some positive action, why didn't the camera van at waddo move out of bracebridge last thursday and catch the morons hammering it near the spotting area, safety camera my back side revenue camera more like it

Well said,someone is going to get killed at the New York-end,they need speed-bumps installed on either side of the lights.